40K has some really stupid numbers

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+1225 – 40K has some really stupid numbers

2022-06-23 21:01:11

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  1. I always took the fact that titans brought warship scale weaponry to land battles at 1/100 the size is why they were terrifying. Miniaturization at that scale is impressive.

  2. We are on Earth, around M2, and we have thousands of naval ships hundreds of feet long and several dozens of feet tall, mass produced around the globe, and not a single commercially viable, human-sized bipedal walker.

    Same difference.

  3. If the point your trying to make is that its dumb that they can mass produce battleships but not titans even though they are much larger you are ignoring several different points. The Mechanicum and Imperium dont actually know how to build much at all, alot of what they build are just STC templates, they dont understand how theyre built they just can build them with those templates. With that in mind it makes complete sense that they can build some things easy and others not at all regardless of the complexity involved.

    However even if they did have the templates easily accesible for both it would be way the fuck harder to build a titan than a giant spaceship. The spaceships are made to function in the void unnaffected by planetary gravity. Down on the ground its much harder to make something even 1/1000th of the scale of those giant spaceships work. In all honesty titans should fold and crumple under their own weight before they even move barring unrealistic scifi materials.

  4. A destroyer doesn’t have to support itself on land, let alone walk. We’ve been making battleships for centuries but are just now getting robots that can walk for more than 10 yards without falling over.

  5. And remember how they have extensive knowledge of repeating cannons on huge scales, but still use gangs of thousands of workers to load ship guns with chains and pulleys.

  6. Context matters quite a bit here.

    One is a warship, it is likely built in massive and vast shipyards, it is a multi role machine, serving purposes of transportation, patrolling, sector control, fleet projection, space superiority, bombardment, and much much more. It is a necessity.

    The titan on the other hand, is a walker, a very very expensive one at that. It’s production is limited on surface area of planets and forgeworlds. Its roles are much more limited. It is a single titan, its purpose is to fight other titans, to burn a world from the ground. However, this can be accomplished by other smaller titans, which have a lesser production bottleneck, are able to be fielded in larger numbers, are capable of controlling more ground, of dealing with titans in a still efficient manner, it is not a necessity due to the fact that its role can be better filled by other items. And as such, not being a necessity, it is not worth the manpower put into building it in comparison, then there is insufficient manpower to be able to build it, as it is used elsewhere.

    Here is a real world example.

    In World War 2, the german army and navy were always at odds with supply and manpower. The germans would later dedicate more resources into tanks and armored vehicles, building such monstrosities such as the big cat tanks. A later design would be the Maus and Ratte tanks, the maus being a very heavily armed and armored tank, and the ratte being a mobile fortress sporting essentially a battleship gun. Both were expensive, neither saw a working prototype, with the maus being salvaged and completed by the british and put into a museum. The reason is that these tanks were very expensive and resources intensive, the ratte weighing in at 1000 tons, or at least planned to be.

    However, this same nation also built two-40 thousand ton battleships, the Bismarck and the Tirpitz. This is because, again, of what they saw as a necessity. The Germans saw the Bismarck class as a necessity, as naval superiority against the British fleet could make or break the war. We saw how it turned out but the point stands as to priorities.

    TLDR, big ship more useful than titan because it can fill better and more useful roles. Big titan, while cool, is inefficient.

  7. Let’s not apply logic to w40k. Otherwise any irreplaceable piece of equipment is going to be the target of saboteurs, nukes, or saboteurs with nukes. Even if a Titan is invincible the ground beneath it certainly isn’t.

  8. 1: bipedal robots are difficult to balance, everything has to be exact. Especially while carrying warship weapons on the ground.

  9. Titans have that little issue of making robots that won’t crush under their own weight and actually operate after their first three steps, spaceships obviously being their own mess but don’t have to fight gravity

  10. easier to fire boosters than to have articulated limbs that can move while carrying the weight of a castle/city

  11. I personally think that titans rely heavily upon some kind of anti gravity technology that helps to keep them from collapsing in on themselves or toppling over extremely easily, some DAOT tech or components within key points of the titan superstructure are what seperates a battle ready titan from a pile of inert wreckage

    As for why they’d be incredibly hard/rare to produce is due to the anti-gravity components requiring rare/exotic materials, specially trained and machined manufactorums and the knowledge to build them

  12. On production, they need the blueprints for these things. Which is also a good point why don’t tau have titans like that?

  13. It’s very different making large structures viable in 0 gravity space, as opposed to on the ground under the effects of gravity. They state many times that starships often can’t handle being in a planet’s atmosphere.

    There’re a gigaton of stupid numbers and the like in 40k. This isn’t the best example of it, though

  14. It’s more about what the imperium has technological access too. The STC for that class of ship might be well known and thoroughly used throughout the imperium, but the STC for certain kinds of titans might be lost. Also as someone else pointed out, bringing starship caliber weaponry to a land battle is a feat in it of itself.

  15. More people need to play epic 40k and warmaster get that sense of scale especially with 3d printing now

  16. There’s a lot of good point listed here for why titans are harder to make, but what I think is most important is that titans are mostly propaganda pieces. Sure its harder to make one titan than a horde of tanks but a horde of tanks doesn’t strike fear the same way a titan does. Your also bound to feel better being on the team that has 3 building sized mechs

  17. Fuck me 40K is stupid. Can’t believe I dedicate hours every day for over a year learning the lore.

  18. Where did you get the numbers for titan? I always thought that each of legs is pretty much a fortress of its own to fight off infantry trying climb/breach them

  19. Yeah numbers in 40k have always been off. Don’t even get started on army size. The Siege of Vraks had about 5x the amount of forces of the Crusade that attacked the Tau, and even then the Siege of Vraks numbers are too low.

  20. It always baffles me why people think a Titan is going to be deployed in the midst of enemy formations, alone, and keep moving while it attacks, instead of being located in a heavily fortified, guarded and stationary position, laying hell on the other side of the battlefield with its extremely long ranged guns. You know, like artillery but 100 times the destructive power, durability and precision.

    And no, I don’t think it’s a great design of a warmachine (just like 88% of anything that is not Tau in the Warhammer universe). But it simply isn’t the absolute joke people make it out to be. Why doesn’t it sink into the ground? Hell if I know, why the fuck can Necrons point at a star and make it go boom? Why do crazy elves run into the battlefield screaming and dressed as clowns making sommersaults while blue menchildren shoot at them? Because it’s fucking awesome and based upon tech-magic that inspired 40k.

  21. First rule of Warhammer, ignore all the numbers.

    In fact, you should probably ignore most of the lore too, like how the mechanicum briefly had a device that let them relocate warp storms (Rob Sander’s Skitarius and Tech-Priest), or how imperial knights are regularly brought down by ork infantry (Mike Brooks’s Brutal Kunnin’)

  22. They are not stupid if you studied manufacturing or logistics.

    Zero gravity means massive components have more inertia. The same tether for a human worker could be used for the armor plating. Not possible on a planet with normal gravity.

    The bigger something is, the more energy is required to move it. The more moving parts, the more energy is required to move it. Why it feels so hard to get the remote after you lied down on the couch now compared to when you were a kid, because it is hard due to being bigger and heavier.

    A star ship is a submarine with more armor. Only several core component has moving parts, like the engine. The ship itself doesn’t articulate.

  23. Thought it was less because the Imperium doesn’t have the means to manufacture them and more that they don’t actually know how

  24. This has always been my complaint about the Rhino and Chimera. Rhino is for the super elite Space Marines but are simple vehicles that can be built anywhere. Chimera are for the common Imperial Guard but are super specialized vehicles that can only be made on forge worlds.

  25. I think it’s silly how they can’t give consistent numbers. For the largest Titans I’ve seen numbers that dwarf the Statue of Liberty, and numbers that are just a few stories tall.

  26. In terms if building large things

    Building them in gravity < building them not in gravity

  27. I’ve never seen it stated that things like Grand Cruisers are easily mass produced. The Imperium just has a lot of them. From how I understood it, a Gloriana or Grand Cruiser takes at least a few decades to roll off the line, if not longer.

    The thing that makes up for that fact is that the Imperium tends to overbuild. Even after they’re blown halfway to Hell and back, they’re still functional. And even after being completely disabled, the hulks are still often salvageable.

  28. Most of the time machine here work by “spray and pray” them with holy water, what do you expect?

  29. I rather think that these Titans rarity stems from the rarity of the STC itself, only a few copies of its STC exist, and they are jealously guarded by their respective forgeworlds, so much so that they’d even produce components they aren’t experienced manufacturing that other forgeworlds can do better just so they don’t let other forgeworlds even glimpse the STC.

    There’s also the human-machine interface.

  30. Also are imperium voidcraft really that easily mass produced? Most of them take hundreds of years to build, and that’s with the added benefit of being built and operated in zero gravity

  31. One’s rare and the other is common because the spaceship is represented on the tabletop by a $5 piece of pewter, while the walker is represented by a $5000 conglomeration of carcinogenic resin and shitty Citadel paint.

  32. Wow doesn’t even mention the princeps integration system and how it’s an extremely rare and guarded Archeotech. Get fucked nerd.

  33. Guys it’s 5km vs 50m it shouldn’t even be comparable in difficulty, I get the arguments it has to walk, not practical, forgotten tech etc… But the real reason is that GW has never had a consistent scale for anything.